The company typically gets sick and diessometimes quickly and sometimes suddenlybut it dies. ++++++++++++++++. I only point out that the historical evidence is not what we protestants want it to be. God put you there, who are you to take yourself out? Dee kindly explained my comment had been flagged because of some word in it and I wasnt blocked. And just because there is a list of qualifications doesnt mean that men wont lie to gain access, or construct a pseudo religion to hide in. The chief interest of Port Royal lies rather in the silent witness which through two and a half centuries she has borne to the naval activities of the island of Jamaica, and in a measure to those of the British fleets which have from time to time visited these waters, than in any part which she has played in the internal domestic development of . Its obvious that theres not enough scintilla of evidence to convict most of them of being Christian. Directed by Dallas Jenkins (The Resurrection of Gavin Stone) and distributed by VidAngel Studios, The Chosen has grown to become the largest crowdfunded TV series of all time. Wasnt it Groucho Marx who once quipped, I would never join an organization who would have me as a member? We meet every Sunday in-person. The average American Christian has evidently become so open-minded about such characters that their spiritual brains have fallen out! If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Thus, I try to insert IMO where applicable. We have seen God continue to change lives through the people and ministries of our church. Well that was my first comment ever and somehow my formatting is a mess. gentle The bit about only a unanimous vote of their executive council being able to remove the lead pastor theres a recipe for success when grievous wolves are not unexpected. Ken F (aka Tweed): LET EVERYONE REVERE THE DEACONS AS JESUS CHRIST, THE BISHOP AS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER, AND THE PRESBYTERS AS THE SENATE OF GOD AND THE ASSEMBLY OF THE APOSTLES. You participated in making what is now a public mockery (an absurd misrepresentation) of the holy the gospel of Jesus Christ. Spend a moment praying to God before you begin reading. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. I dont have any answers. Prayer and then in person, second after trying that, you are to take a witness in Christ / go with a brother in Christ to confront, then and only then you must take the church elders and confront your brother that he may turn and forsake his sins. I can understand your desire not to become a public figure. Much as I seek to be gracious and forgiving, it is extremely difficult to accept these new confessions at face value. Blaming bloggers and the media for having bad form for discussing the issues, but then admitting that they are true? And to link them together as a Body of Christ, each one uniquely gifted to be a part of the whole something the institutional church just doesnt appear to get. When my friends are all gone. They engineered the black funds and the worst of the financial abuse. I truly believe God provides the grace for elders to walk in the attributes in 1Tim 3, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. Behind him, an ancient city unfurled. A lot to think about these days! My name is on all my posts and frankly I find your whining annoying. Plus there are several tombs of El Cid, the lost hero who saved Spain from the Muslim rulers in different cathedrals. Sandy: In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? The lampstand was removed a long time ago. Thats really the point. Howard Hughes. It has reference to one who is seen as a care giver, or guardian for the church. I envision a paradigm shift in the way we do church in America. And probably just as Drama-Rama and Fundy about it, Magick Crystals and all. God bless you. I too often look around at this world, and feel discouraged and useless to make any difference. Both HBC & WC had a plurality of elders and a single pastor as the head of their church. Any truth about MacDonald as a bad-boy preacher needs to be made public! Oh no, we must look to whatever local shcmuck stands in our particular church pulpit and asserts that he speaks for God. not violent When God leaves, it always becomes about something elseits amazing. Vague and almost never supported accusations, e.g., the posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the commentshere is always, in my experience, just a smear from someone whos actually rather cowardly and just looking to defame. Thats too deep to answer. No ill will intended, and I will add your f-i-l and family to my prayers. There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, all while commenting from anonymous online handles. I dont get the impression that Dee is OK with Hall at all. He is son of celebrated Left Behind author Jerry Jenkins. But hundreds of others have similar testimony. Why in the world hed take this approach and evidently consider it courageous or fitting is completely beyond me. They have acted like they dont believe that with no fear of God but payday is coming someday when they stand before their Creator. Unfortunate, but true. As of 2020, they now gather as City Line Church. able to teach Unless it was a danger to someone. Some things are great for a public airing, where its completely right. This statement just doesnt sound much like what Jesus talked to the twelve about. So you and Dean screwed up. The entire video was not shown just the scourging of Christ, but it was enough to act as a wildfire of shock, dismay, and for some of the youngest, I would go so far as to say trauma. Harvest Christian Academy, a private K-12 school with 650 students, was opened in Elgin . trust God and not your own self. Whatever we do as a church family, this is Gods work among us this is His church and His mission, to the glory of Jesus Christ. Truth the WHOLE truth is the only antidote. Too many are like big box stores that shutter all of (the little churches on) Main Street, and then close their own doors forever. Whose job is the ministry? In some cases these elders may be greater in years of living faithfully rather than simply age. I will have to wait until I get to my computer because Im on my phone and the type of the letter is too small to read. There have been countless decisions made for Christ at Camp Harvest, along with the immeasurable life-transforming impact on countless students, men, women, and families. Those types rarely think of anyone but themselves. He moved to Plano. none of that matters now. It could very well be that Christianity is at the tipping point where believers realize that they are doing church without God where they have put their faith in religious systems of assorted belief and practice, rather than building a personal relationship with Christ. Most of those Ive heard and experienced who tout elder-rule polity will say that this passage says anything but pew peons having any say in elder or pastor selection and/or accountability. This resource is better: https://www.archbalt.org/clergy-personnel-division/bishops-priests-deacons/. If the elders are in place primarily because they are buds of the pastor (yes-men), wealthy, prominent in the community, popular in the church but do not meet the Biblical qualifications to serve in that sacred office if there is no evidence in their lives of being filled with the Holy Spirit and being above reproach then you have a Harvest Bible Chapel or Willow Creek mess waiting to happen, regardless of the size of the ministry. FOR DALLAS JENKINS, telling stories comes naturally. Agreed. This is indeed the plan of Satan, IMO, but when you try to suggest such a thing you are usually scoffed at as a conspiracy theorist. SiteSeer: I see nothing denoting an office. It seems like to me that in a group of people, these things sort themselves out without anyone declaring it to be a position and appointing people to it. Why would a person, individually, or a community put up with this behavior? By the end of the first century there are already offices of bishop, priest, and deacon. The NT writers frequently warn that false teachers, wolves, charlatans will enter the church to lead people astray; others are already there and will eventually show their true colours. Which direction you take religion or relationship determines whether you discover Truth or not. The Four Pillars of HBC: 1 - PROCLAIMING the authority of God's Word without apology. It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. It just doesnt seem to be relevant (at least to me) to anything that this blogs about. How would church members do what you recommend? 5G, Closer Campaign. These arent hard hurdles for true elders to get throughbut if you ask a church elder to tell you about their elders and it comes back with a set of corporate jargon? Funny how highly institutional types value the written word of God, yet despise the teaching of godly elders that is available to one and all in countless books written through the ages. If she ends up with child porn on her computer which she can just barely turn on to view Facebook Im going to guess JMac or somebody planted it. Its sad to have lived to such a ripe old age to witness a generation that doesnt respect their elders as they ought. Dallas Jenkins, Catholic Gate-Crasher: Lol. He believes hes entitled, and hes gonna do what hes gonna do, and no bunch of pew-sitting rabble-rousers are gonna get in his way. Size, style, structure, statements, staff..have not guaranteed us safe and healthy churches. Here are some of my running thoughts of the statement. They are needles in the haystack, rare and endangered species, last of the Mohicans so I will cheer them on rather than applauding those who masquerade as angels of light. I implore you to keep a watchful eye on those who cause trouble and make difficulties among you, in plain opposition to the teaching you have been given, and steer clear of them. The teenage years are an awesome time to grow in Christ. My church is also a UMC church looking at that kind of ministry. I initially read that as bought him years of support.Same thing I guess. Dallas Jenkins and Dean Butters letters are only two of six submitted to the Elders. If the elders measured them selves against the qualities needed for the job and found themselves lacking, they should have withdrawn or the church members should have made the decision for them. If their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. Abigail: Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? chosen by the hand of Jesus? Its nice to have a multimillionaire dad. I realize people are suffering from pain and confusion, but now is not the time to be silent. And while it is no surprise that these so-called churches, which represent one of the most insidious movements in the history of the Christian Church, are ending in self inflicted destruction we can find some comfort that people who were led astray by them can find solace in other groups of believers who I am sure would welcome them with open arms. Jenkins says he has "great affection" for his time at Harvest, his work there, and even his time even knowing Driscoll. Remove the plank so the splinter can be clearly seen. Dont ever feel like your input here is ever wasted. There is also this interesting statement by Ignatuius (martyred in 108 AD): LET EVERYONE REVERE THE DEACONS AS JESUS CHRIST, THE BISHOP AS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER, AND THE PRESBYTERS AS THE SENATE OF GOD AND THE ASSEMBLY OF THE APOSTLES. Were more or less on the same page, it sounds like. A group began meeting and praying together in 2011. Because MacDonald earned it. 4107 N Steele Blvd, Fayetteville, AR, 72703, United States. elastigirl: but ultimately it means people are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining their silence. James and you have lived a lifestyle for a long time of trying to prove that Jesus lied. It is a position of authority and responsibility. I really cant come up with a legitimate reason for why these Pastors and Elders are continuing to conceal the truth while realizing that doing so will result in decades of further abuse. * Apparently, many of the leaders sent their kids to Harvest Academy and there is fear that their kids will be thrown out of school. And thats before one adds in the problem of self-deception. They truly have no idea. The posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments both here and on Twitter from anonymous people. im so glad i resisted & refused all the pressure the christian community put on everyone concerning that film. . And they swam out to each other through the swirling stream they came Ive been in churches where folks in the pew worshiped the property more than Jesus! Also such leaders do have authority (God-given). His arrogance and rage unbalances him. You are loved!. In every church I was part of the pastor put forth a list of men to choose from, and the pastor was appointed from outside the church. Someone asked How high does this go? So instead of trying to defend these rascals, I prefer to inform and warn the church about the wolves in their midst rather than giving them a break. Never! Greg Laurie, pastor and founder of the 15,000-member Harvest, announced the move in June. Harvest Bible Chapel is an evangelical Christian megachurch in Rolling Meadows, Illinois. Growth group leaders, childrens staff and volunteers, and many others were committed to creating ways to safely and faithfully meet together. Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. Ive got to process that letter. He intended this confession to go to elders onlyand is angry that it got into the hands of those not in that rarified air. Please do not use these as an excuse not to be part of a vibrant biblical church! Take away the money and you will find far fewer wolves circling the pot. I know exactly what you mean. Hard to imagine that they would ever voluntarily fission into smaller groups. So why not allow comments? Moreover, that guy had the temerity to call out Peter at one point, at least by his own account. I havent read the comments, and Im just going to say that seeing a dead bear there with James McDonald behind it made me sick. This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. Dallas Jenkins shares with Pastor Ricky and Dave how The Chosen. Harvest Bible Chapel began meeting the Rolling Meadows High School building. Dee fully admits Hall scares her. just ex HCA Staff: Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain. Dee, you may want to poke around Alistair Beggs church. Culty. Its amazing. husband of one wife And you have the same right as the rest of us to post anonymously. They will return to their secrecy and self-dealing as a dog returns to his vomit, because power and money are that seductive and because if they could keep it a secret during the height of the Harvest scandal, no way will it be discovered at a less notorious church. Not for money or fame but just because you want to show them love. If you believe you have been financially defrauded, we want to hear from you. I dont see how were in opposition. In our common language, we use the word elder to describe one who is older than ourselves. The history of church offices is a bit more complicated. He is faithful, gracious, merciful, kind and always desires and seeks out your best. Look what that got them. what are these things you see in such people that you identify as being grace-filled? Power provides for itself and money and sex. When will the madness end?! SiteSeer: This is so very true! Christ gave Himself for His people and that kind of sacrificial self-giving love was meant to be characteristic of those who stood in Christs place in offices of authority in the churches. If even one little thing God has brought me through can help someone else, I am exceeding glad. You see, the symbolic meaning of harvest in Scripture encompasses two main areas: God's provision for us and God's blessing for others. When she cleared the backlog, the partial Lauren went through along with my original longer one. That incident was only the tip of the iceberg. Amy Moore: Truth the WHOLE truth is the only antidote More leaders must take a stand and shine the light of truth. This man has no shame. Funny, but I still have dreams about the former pastor. It used to be so unthinkable to imagine life without religion as I have always known it. As God himself never forces anyone to believe in him, or acknowledge the Truth, we cannot expect to be able to persuade others to see what, to us, seems so obvious. Because they have no conscience and no moral compass. Cut corners in the case of MacDonald, Hybels, Driscoll, and assorted others meant they decided it was OK to be a little wicked if a little good could come from it. but again, oodles of people also have personal knowledge of the kingdom of God, through knowing God. Max: TS00: Or would they even care? I think its one of the reasons that the mega movement has been so attractive to laity as well as leaders; they imagine that a bigger, more resource-rich group will be able to rescue more people from the terrible fate they would otherwise experience. Almighty God himself being murdered by a corrupt religious cabal in collusion with the Roman military. We are living through a decades-long trial of betrayal, and I have found myself weak of faith these last few years. Wartburgers, perhaps they are coming to a church near you! Thats a remarkably long time for the wheels to fall off. These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things (that will probably never happen) to keep the men coming. Law Prof: Years later, the church long ago destroyed by heavy abuse and the former members scattered, a number of them atheists today, that drama pastor is now into the New Age. One can only guess at the motive behind their inaction, but even with the most basic discernment skills one could easily surmise that the money train was at the heart. CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders.. Exactly what were people afraid of? The way back: 2 Chronicles 7:14 but I dont see much movement in that direction. The office of an elder is not to be taken lightly. Ive never felt a humbling that felt particularly good, at least short-term. Bridget: I dont know, Ken. No more sin sacrifices. Max, I love you. But I suspect that since McDonalds first job is being a pastor, it would not surprise me if this was a canned hunt. If people develop So theyll speak of doin church together, or kingdom life, or some such nonsense. If a cynic like me can be taken in, naive, trusting folks are easy prey. Id never seen the movie and still havent, but it was some pretty shocking stuff for a guy who hadnt seen a horror movie since the 1980s. But as long as theres sin, there will be plenty of work to do to shine a light in the dark places of Christendom. The mega-masters vocalize Jesus occasionally and even talk about Him from a gospel vantage point. Yowzers, you have me stumped. Lowlandseer: The elders [PRESBUTEROS] who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder [PRESBUTEROS] and a witness of the suffering of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed; shepherd [POIMEN] the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers [EPISKOPOS], not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly. (1 Peter 5:1-2). Those who are denied the biblical right of hearing have found that there is, at last, a place where they can be heard. I feel like all of the verses you quoted would work just as well if it was translated the older, mature believers in the church. I see nothing denoting an office. It seems like to me that in a group of people, these things sort themselves out without anyone declaring it to be a position and appointing people to it. Its your choice. If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? It didnt reveal anything new. elastigirl: why does it matter what Max thinks, I took your text out of context a bit, so forgive me. VCB became Vertical Worship and currently has more than 20 songs in the CCLIs Top 500 Songs Sung in US Churches, including Open Up the Heavens and Yes, I Will.. This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the Truth. A narcissist is very good at manipulating people, and very patient. a word for when you throw up a basket of fruit and everything settles in a different place, and youre confused because you understood each thing in relation to all the other things. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. Was it because he met the qualifications for eldership? So, as you imply, in their heart of hearts they dont really give a big hoot about reading the precious words in red, let alone the rest of Scripture. In church context, it may even be worse than the secular business context because in addition to the objective institutional power wielded by the narcissist CEO, there is the presumption of divine authority which legitimates the misuse of power. The following is an extract from LookinguntoJesus.net, Presbuterous, Episkopos & Poimen But your comment proves you are doing exactly what you oppose. I was at a Lenten service and helping with confirmation this evening. elastigirl: perhaps the other side of this coin can be the joy and happiness of discovering the magnificence of fellow human beings outside the context of christian culture. John: JMac should never pastor another church ever. He relocated here from another state to marry my daughter, and pastors a small mainstream church that has been struggling to keep its doors open the past few years. You will come closer to finding the genuine in third-world countries where the persecuted church resides. At least we can see from this that publicizing facts online does provably result in change. You should repent and make reparations where necessary. As usual, your comments and insight are on the money, Amy Moore. It is pure hearsay or flat gossip to engage in tearing down other church bodies in an effort to be judge and jury in the place of God. I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support their gambling problem. Not. But not genuine relationships. I am not suggesting that this is or is not the way Jesus intended for his church. They deliberately employ a faulty theology to ensnare and use others for their own ends. The first service in this new house of God was held on September 10, 1995. After seven years, the growing congregation of 500 raised funds in six weeks to secure a former warehouse at 800 S Rohlwing Road in Rolling Meadows. I would like to believe, and I think theres pretty good textual evidence that this is valid, that what Jesus and the apostles intended (and that apparently did not continue for very long after the passing of the apostolic generation) was that the hierarchy would be a hierarchy of self-giving. We should not be surprised that the battle between the false and the true rages on, and should continue to cling to the true, whatever the cost. First question: when was this letter written and sent? Bad decisions lead to pain. I find it very comforting to know that Jesus entered into a world that was very similar to what we now face: Religion had become a caricature of what God desired, and Jesus gently called people to follow him, rather than fear men. . holding fast the faithful word Then when it all comes to an angry pus-filled head and finally pops because the infection is so deep, he decides that things have gone too far and he writes a letter (but a private letter) and gets angry when its shared as a means of supporting the people whove been trying to expose the abuse. No christain organization should have the artibutes that we are reading about, and that Mr Jenkins letter validates. Because I was asked to consider serving on the elder board there three days before I leftand the topic of 1Tim 3 wasnt brought up. You have done some confession, but in private only. They act like the real problem is that they messed up in a technical way. Samuel Conner: Be imitators of God, as dearly loved children, and live a life of love, even as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us. Maybe thats why the history of the church is a history of exodus from established groups and setting up of new ones? When you pay for it then maybe you can make your own rules. Most were started by a mere man who was convinced that his mission had more of a corner on the Truth than the rest. David: Fred Adams former Harvest CFO has a serious gambling addiction. As the author of one of the synoptic gospels, the compiler of early acts of the original Apostles, and the traveling companion of Paul, wouldnt he be the one mostly responsible for letting Paul get away with it? Your actions are tell tale in what you believe regard God and Jesus his son. Its not as if they have any other choice, as the truth continues to trickle out. Restore him to ministry? Thats it right there. Every church should be safe and reliable. (Not questioning its authenticity, just want to be clear on the context), What MacDonald has done must be documented, not only for the education of his next set of *followers* but for posterity. (Dee). Remove the plank so the splinter can be clearly seen. , Info on the photo is apparently wrong. He promised never to leave me, Everyone who is of the Truth, who is a friend of the Truth and belongs to the Truth, hears and listens carefully to My voice. (Jesus, John 18:37). None of us called Christian should reach the last chapter of life and still be asking What is truth? dont let the mere teachings of men distract you from finding it read the red and pray for revelation! Muff Potter: Youre not alone elastigirl, theres no way I could watch it either. The first three paragraphs above is what I was hoping to comment on lol. When I did see it, in my home, I was livid that they essentially forced people to go. We praise God as many heard the Good News that weekend. 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